Should a carabiner ever be clipped to the tie-in loops and should anything other than a carabiner ever attach to the belay loop?
I'm a beginning climber and am trying to resolve conflicting instruction related to tying into my harness.
During a recent outing a friend (an experienced climber, but not an instructor) was showing me the basics of switching from climbing to rappelling. The basic steps followed were:
- Climbing to the anchor while on belay, tied in directly to the rope
- Securing a sling to my belay loop by threading it through itself, then securing it to the anchor via a locking biner (first question)
- Securing the rope to myself, then untying from it
- Halving the rope, attaching my rappel device, and using a locking carabiner to secure the device to the tie-in loops (second question)
- ...the rest isn't really relevant
So my questions arise from the usage of the belay and tie-in loops. I've been taught by a trained instructor that rope should never be tied directly into the belay loop as it can generate excessive friction and cause failure.
My first question relates to my friend's instruction to secure the sling to my belay loop without a carabiner. This made me wonder if we were misusing the belay loop. Her rationale was that the tie-ins were occupied by the rope, and since the sling would be used to hold my static weight (and not a fall) that there was no risk of excessive friction.
My second question comes from attaching my rappel device. I was instructed to clip it through both tie-in loops rather than the belay device. Again her rationalization was that the belay loop was occupied by the sling.
And a final question related to the first two: most of the reasoning for this approach was to keep the tie-ins and belay loop occupied by a single sling / biner / rope at any time. Is it unsafe to have multiple connections to a single point while switching from climbing to rappelling (e.g. a rope and sling through the tie-ins, or two biners through the belay loop if I'm clipped to both a rope and a sling)?
I've had a lot of discussions about this and what I gather is hooking a carabiner into both hard tie-in points when bela …
9y ago
I'd like to point out something not addressed in AlanL and DavidR's answers. There doesn't seem to be any allowance made …
11y ago
i have been approached in climbing gyms a few time with an employee asking me to set my atc device up on my belay loop w …
11y ago
I disagree with DavidR's answer to point 1. Girth hitching a sling to your belay loop to clip into the anchors whilst se …
11y ago
Oh, your 3rd question (I didnt see it): Is it unsafe to have multiple connections to a single point while switching fro …
11y ago
Question: Should I girth hitch my main belay loop Answer: No! You shouldn't girth-hitch a sling to your belay loop. T …
11y ago
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6 answers
I'd like to point out something not addressed in AlanL and DavidR's answers. There doesn't seem to be any allowance made in STW's friend's procedure for a safety backup for the rappel, e.g., in case rockfall causes you to lose your grip on the brake strand. The standard technique for this, described in ch. 11 of Freedom of the Hills, is to use a runner to extend your rappel device, and attach a Prusik to the brake strand. If you're putting a biner through both tie-in loops, then not only do you risk cross-loading the biner, as DavidR pointed out, but it sounds like you're not extending your rappel device.
Personally, I make the extension by girth-hitching to my belay loop. This appears to be the method shown in the diagram in FotH, although the text is (to me) unclear: "Girth-hitch the loop ... to the harness, around both the waist belt and the leg loop attachment."
To me, the issue of having a backup is primary, and the issue of whether it's OK to girth-hitch to the belay loop is secondary. You could certainly rig the extension using an additional biner in order to avoid the girth-hitch.
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I've had a lot of discussions about this and what I gather is hooking a carabiner into both hard tie-in points when belaying from the ground is OK and it's moot point. Here's what happens when you catch your lead climber (from the ground). The rope goes tight and your carabiner has an upward pull. This upward pull will pull the bottom loop up and the impact load will be taken initially by the bottom loop against the carabiner. After that the second 'upper' loop will come into contact with the first 'bottom' loop and more load energy will be dissipated. The carabiner will only see one point of force. So for belaying upwards it is safe. HOWEVER, if you are rappelling and you have a carabiner through both hard tie in points, that is a very different situation. If you lay horizontally the hard tie in points will spread out and you will indeed have a tri-axle loaded system which is a big no-no. So, with that said, I believe the manufacturers are covering their bases by saying 'never' when it really is application specific. So they are saying 'never' to ensure that you don't accidentally use it in the wrong mode.
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i have been approached in climbing gyms a few time with an employee asking me to set my atc device up on my belay loop when belaying. however i stand beside my knowledge of climbing 101, which is everything is set up on two contact points! i tie my rope in on two contact loops, never the belay loop. i set my daisy chain or pas22 on both contact points, never the belay loop. and a good mountaineer would be worried if i belayed him with my atc on the belay loop. gym instructors have been misguiding our youth on this. i understand the belay loop is strong but really it just holds the two contact loops together.never trust on contact point
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Question: Should I girth hitch my main belay loop
Answer: No! You shouldn't girth-hitch a sling to your belay loop. The belay loop should only ever be in contact with a carabiner, as the trained instructor told you. As the instructor told you, girth hitching to the main belay loop will cause it extra wear, and make it wear out faster.
You can girth hitch slings through the two "tie-in" points that the belay loop itself runs through - on most harnesses those tie-in points are designed for that - they're extra thick, have a protective nylon layer, and since they're two of them, they're redundant. But...
If you're asking about the "easiest" system to use, I'd recommend getting an "anchor chain". There are a few different ones on the market (see link). They are specalized slings that solve this problem you're facing, and many people find them more convenient than using slings. Also, because they're a commercial product, they come with instructions. :)
Question: Should I run a carabiner through both my tie-in points, or the main belay loop
Answer: DO NOT clip a carabiner through the two tie in points. This will "cross-load" the carabiner. Also, it will put the rappel device awkwardly close to your person and clothes. Instead clip it into the belay loop. That's what a belay loop is for.
See this question for images on how to tie in and a brief explanation of the reasoning behind.
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Oh, your 3rd question (I didnt see it):
Is it unsafe to have multiple connections to a single point while switching from climbing to rappelling (e.g. a rope and sling through the tie-ins, or two biners through the belay loop if I'm clipped to both a rope and a sling)?
Those are 2 separate questions (multiple things running through the tie-in points, or multiple things running through the belay loop.
Multiple things in the tie-in points
If I understand your question, are you asking "Can I have a rope, an anchor chain (and the belay loop) all running through my tie-in points at the same time, such that either of them, if weighted, would load the tie-in points?". If that's the question, then, yes. This is the standard setup.
Multiple things on the belay loop
The only thing that should ever go on to your belay loop is the carabiner attached to your belay device, so, no, I don't think you'd ever have multiple things attached to the belay loop.
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I disagree with DavidR's answer to point 1. Girth hitching a sling to your belay loop to clip into the anchors whilst setting up a rappel is common practice and perfectly ok. Leaving a sling permanently girth hitched to the same spot on your belay loop and using it that way for years is a bad idea that has led - in the entire recorded history of climbing - to one high profile death of a very famous climber. So don't do that.
Far more important, when anchored with a sling or anything other than a dynamic climbing rope, is to never move above the belay, and ideally keep the sling weighted at all times. A sling has almost no dynamic energy absorbing capacity and even a short fall onto one can break the sling, or your pelvis, or both.
Karabiners through the tie-in loops are a bad idea, will cause them to be cross-loaded.
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